Growing an email lead list builder to $20k MRR: Valentin Wallyn (FindyMail)
Welcome back to Ramen FM, where we discuss stories, tactics, and actionable insights that will help you take your bootstrapped start up to Ramen profitable and beyond. Today, we have a very special guest, Valentin Wallin. Valentin is a longtime member of Ramen Club, living in Leon, and he is the founder, amongst other things, of Findemail, a high quality email finder tool with an automation layer designed to help b to b salespeople build lead lists faster for cold outreach. It lets you scrape Sales Navigator, Apollo, and much more. He's bootstrapped it solo to 20 k MRR and recently got into the latest Tiny Seed batch.
Charlie:Perhaps he's Prosecco profitable now. We'll learn about the difference between Indie Hacker Twitter and so called Money Twitter, his approach to cold email, and Valentin's advice for Indie Hackers. So without further ado, let's get into this one. So I think I'd just like to start at the beginning, basically. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into building things in the first place?
Valentin:Yeah. Sure. So I have a technical background. Like, so my first love is, like, programming. I started, like, playing with things when I was in high school, like learning to code, that kind of stuff.
Valentin:So in parallel of like studying in college and having like a computer engineering degree. So I started like doing some side projects. My first product, I would say was like a desktop software actually that was doing some automation on the video game I was playing at the time. And that was how I got like my first dollars online. And I realized like you could make some money when you're sleeping, that's changed.
Valentin:That changed everything basically on the way I was viewing the world and stuff. And yeah, just also the feeling of like people actually using the stuff I was building and getting feedback from that. That was just amazing and I just wanted to do that more.
Charlie:I read up on this and it was reselling a digital currency in a video game or something like that, wasn't it?
Valentin:Yeah so there was two parts of it. The goal of the software was to automate stuff in the game. And you could obviously like get the money of the game by playing and automating that made you progress faster in the game and get more digital gold. And for people that didn't have time, could all like people were selling that kind of digital gold for actual money. So there were some people including myself that was actually using that software to like farm that digital currency and sell it to people.
Valentin:So there was some money for the actual software, which is like $3 a month or something. And also some money from like using the software as a user.
Charlie:I feel like the gamer to SaaS entrepreneur pipeline is quite strong. Like, I think it's quite rare to find someone that didn't start out doing something quite like that. And what were the other main projects that you built on the way to building your current main project find email?
Valentin:So then, like, I got into SaaS a bit later on with SEO. So in between, like, I started playing with websites because, for example, for that software, I wanted to like try to rank on some keywords, like the keywords that describe software. So I started like learning about what was that thing we called SEO and search engine optimization, like how I could make my website appear there. And I started building other websites like doing some blogging stuff. Like I didn't really enjoy writing consistently.
Valentin:Like I always failed to do it consistently. I would just motivate myself to write a few blog posts for a few months and then drop. So I never achieved success. But I enjoyed the SEO part, which was a bit like feeling like a bit a king, the search engine. And that felt much more interesting.
Valentin:And so I wanted to then like basically mix the two things I liked at the time, which was building a product in the SEO field, which I enjoyed. So I built SEO, which was an SEO monitoring product. And it started as like just a simple product to keep track of your backlinks and making sure it's still alive. It's basically when you build backlinks like, or is there any way you do it with relationships, you buy them or whatever. Like sometimes you agree on something like, oh, give me a link there.
Valentin:And then you forget about it. Then three months later, like she's a webmaster, just remove your website or your link, either intentionally or not, but doesn't matter for Google. Like your link is not is not there anymore. And you just wasted that opportunity. So the first goal of the app was just to like keep track of all that and alert you if a link was removed.
Charlie:Gotcha. And, there's also, scrapey birds after that as well. Right?
Valentin:Yeah. So on SEO, basically, I made all the mistakes of like first time SaaS builder with a technical background. So what started as a backlink tracker, I just kept adding more and more features that I thought people wanted to use and wanted in SEO software. So I added the wrong tracker, added analytics, added page monitoring, added too many things. And in the same time, the MRR never really got up more than a few hundreds because I was basically not doing any sales or marketing.
Valentin:And the few things I was trying to do while I was quite validated at the time, so it just didn't really work. I didn't know to do cold emails. I didn't know anything. You didn't have an audience. So so nothing really resonated with the SEO pips.
Charlie:I heard a quote recently called just focus on things that make the boat go faster. And it sounds like you were kind of in that situation before where you were just working on stuff. That kind of was fun to work on, but it wasn't actually like really moving the needle. Right?
Valentin:Yeah yeah I was just redoing the painting on the boat like
Charlie:You're painting the boat!
Valentin:Yeah exactly but that was also I was also like doing my degree at the time. So that was a side project. I felt that was part of the reason it wasn't growing. Like I was only spending a few hours here and there on this. And then I finished my study and I went full time on it.
Valentin:Was thinking, okay, no, this has to move. Like I will focus on that full time. No way this will not work. And I spent a few months full time on it and like nothing changed. So I said, okay, I need to change something obviously that doesn't, it's not working.
Valentin:And so 2022, I said, let's give up that SEO idea for now, like keep it running for the few customers I have, but let's dedicate some time to explore other products. So I split my time and I was exploring new projects. So that's how I started Scrapy Bird among other things. So I started ScrapyBird and also a Reddit automation tool called ProspectIt at the same time around like in February or something, February, March 2022. And I started like using ScrapyBird and ProspectIt to like sell to send tools.
Valentin:So basically ScrapyGrad was a b to b email scrapper for Twitter. So the way it works is you can like plug a Twitter username or a specific tweet and it will scrap a list of profiles for, let's say, like the followers of Charlie and turn that list of followers into a list of emails that you can use then, like, to outreach. So for example, I know people that follow Charlie are interested in ramen and I'm a ramen shop and I will outreach all the followers of Charlie about my amazing ramens. And that adds some relevancy because if they follow Charlie, like they're likely to be interested in ramens more than the average guy. You can also say you saw the Twitter profile, which is not really that common in outreach and that's even more natural.
Valentin:And on top of that, you just spent thirty seconds getting an email list without any work on your site, which is always nice. So all that just made people interested and like the MRR just grew over the SEO product in a few days. So I was like, let's completely give up that SEO project. Like that's the proof that this was not a good thing. So I started like actively trying to grow Stripey Bird and it worked quite well.
Valentin:But I realized like when doing sales call with the people, like one good thing was that it's the only product out there that those days. So it's a good differentiator, but at the same time, like people don't even know that such product exists. So they don't look for it. They don't necessarily understand right away whether it works or how to use it. So I was mainly appealing to like people that are interested to explore new things and try new new way of getting customers, but those are not like the majority of people.
Valentin:I said with the same principle that made the people interested in Scrappy Paint, could I not just build something that was more generic and something that people are actually looking for already, but with the same idea of giving high quality data fast. And that's how Find Email was born basically, which is as its core, it's just an email finder, which like thousands of them already for years and people know already how to use them. And so I started like that product inside and I started plugging it in the sales skills of Scraper Beard once Scraper Beard wasn't relevant. So I said, well Scrapy Bird doesn't look right for you, for your origins, but I actually started building another thing called Finding O which may be more interesting in your use case. And that's how it started.
Valentin:And again, like basically grew even faster than ScraperGood. So I was like, okay, shit it. Wow. Another pivot just transitioning again in terms of like spending my time. And I started like actively selling Find Email first instead of selling ScrapyBud first.
Valentin:And now basically I'm full time on Find Email and ScrapyBud is still running, but it's just, there's just a link in in find email linking to Scraper World if you want to scrape Twitter. And that's just grow like this as an option.
Charlie:That's awesome. And this is actually a tactic that I think is slightly underutilized. It to take something that already exists. There are already competitors that are making money and just to improve on it and to market it better. So what was it you noticed about the lead list builders that you're now competing with that you wanted to improve on?
Charlie:And what what did you change?
Valentin:Yeah. So one thing I I noticed when I wanted to do when doing StrapiGurt was that when you're using, like, every other email finder out there, you have to, they basically give you guest email sometimes and you can't really rely on it. Like you don't actually know if it's valid or not. So you have to use a third party tool, another SaaS, even doing email verification, then you have to take that data, put it in the email verification, only keep the valid data and then you can use it. I said, that's stupid.
Valentin:Like why I'm paying for data provider, but then I have to pay someone else to verify that the data provider didn't give me bullshit that I begged for. And it just adds also extra operations for me. Like why doesn't data provider exist where I can just get data that I can just use right away and he's there doing the data stuff. Should be the case. And I didn't understand why no one was doing it.
Valentin:So I started doing that. Scrapybird was only providing like verified emails and people like that. So I was like, could do that too for us an email finder standalone. So that was the first like value prop up find email which was you're only paying a credit when we find a verified email. That's it.
Valentin:And that's actually surprisingly a good differentiator because no one else is doing it and people loved it.
Charlie:And then you use your own tools, Find Email and Scrapy Bird to market those products as well.
Valentin:Yeah. So then by doing the cold email campaigns with ScrapyBird to sell ScrapyBird, I obviously learned in the trenches as well how to make effective CallDemade campaigns and I could just leverage like my own tools to get emails and run those campaigns. So obviously that was also a good proof that my tool was, were useful. And using using your own tools is also a good way to notice like what could be improved, what's not working, what's useful, what's not.
Charlie:Yeah, I totally agree. In tech, they call it dog feeding, don't they? When you actually use your own tool to help improve it. And I think a surprising amount of founders and product teams, they don't actually do this, but it makes such a big difference. One thing I wanted to ask you is, like, from your experience doing this, what do you think are, the main ingredients in a really effective cold email in your experience?
Valentin:It's hard to pinpoint only one, but it's, like, it will be an abstract one. But it's just like relevancy and what you can offer. Basically, the whole goal of a cold email is to get on in front of someone that is experiencing a problem that you solve. So the whole game is to be able to find those people, try to not outreach to people that are not those people, because you will just piss them off. Obviously you can't be right 100 of the time, that's not possible.
Valentin:But your goal is to reduce the number of people that you piss off for and to be in front of the maximal people that are actually experiencing the problem and getting them understand that you can solve that problem.
Charlie:So the relevancy is very important. And I saw you previously write about a book called $100,000,000 offers. So I have not read this book yet, but I suspect understanding the contents of books like that is very important for making sure you have a really strong offer that's really relevant to those people kind of thing. Was that like a bit of a turning point, like reading content like that sort of thing for you?
Valentin:Yeah. So the 100,000,000 offers like really gives you a good framework in terms of like crafting enough and all the the various spots that come into play into crafting an offer, like where's the value come from, what's the different variables you can play with, how you can increase the risk, lower the risk for somebody, increase your margin, whatnot. And I really didn't like really change like, oh, I implemented XYZ the next, so the day after and change everything. No, didn't go like that, but it really like, clarified the mantle framework I was using in terms of, like, offer. And from the day I read that, like, just helped me have a better thinking of, like, everything about, like, the offers crafting.
Charlie:So something that I think is really interesting about you, you're not just on Indie hacker Twitter. You're like you've got, like, one foot in Indie hacker Twitter, but all it one in something called MoneyTwitter. And there's lot of Indie hacks that I don't know if aware of this thing called MoneyTwitter, but, like, how would you kind of describe it and compare it to the indie hacker Twitter?
Valentin:So, yeah, money Twitter is a weird place. It's basically virtual house thread pros that out there and bragging about how much money they make and inspiring younger folks trying to start their own businesses. And so, yeah, it's a bit of a bro community where you are like, they're all like, look, I can, I pulled that hot chick with my cigar and I made 10 today? That's a bit of a cliche of the successful monetary guru, but they actually are working their house offs. They're like running businesses.
Valentin:They are starting stuff, trying stuff and you can learn a lot from them. So hats off to all that. And it's really good like motivation as well because when you see people making money and see, you can see it's possible. I like that's that makes you try even harder, which is the opposite of like India could Twitter or sometimes like people are celebrating like 50. And like, that's good because like the spirit is very positive.
Valentin:But at the end of the day, like 50 MRR doesn't it's you won't go very far with that. Like it's not, it's not run and profitable, you can't leave off that. And so you can be stuck on like, useless projects that won't go anywhere for years, like I did with SEO. And sometimes you're the positive vibe is great. But sometimes you need like, key in the ass to actually do the art thing, which could be, like, giving up that project and starting something else.
Charlie:So I've attempted to try and analyze, like, what you've done to combine these two worlds. So the point of view I have is, like, you've taken from money to a certain kind of terminology of, you know, the concepts of, like, crafting a really compelling offer, the sort of, like, energy and hustle of, like, you know, lots of cold outreach, that kind of thing, and the sort of ambition of, like, you know, wanting to make a lot of money. But you take that and combine that with what IndieHacker Twitter is good at, which is basically creating actual goods working software. Because I think most people in money Twitter are actually making it's like agencies normally and stuff like that and service businesses. But there's not many people who I think have taken that side and just meshed it with creating actual software.
Charlie:But do you think that's like a decent read on it?
Valentin:Yeah. That's that's a very good read of it. Actually, money treasure is filled with agencies. There's not a lot products there. It's basically a bunch of like salespeople and marketing people.
Valentin:They like speaking about stuff and they like selling stuff. They don't necessarily deliver all the time on the product, on the services they're selling. So there's also like on every part of the internet, there's a bunch of scammers. And yeah, on the opposite side, you have India or Twitter where you have like software craftsmen like that can create like really good product, very good looking with decent features and everything. And they're like, they don't do any sales or marketing on it.
Valentin:So they don't make any money of it. And that's a bit sad to see. And so yeah, the combination of those were just like creating good software, but also be able to, like, sell it and get in get it in the end of the people that need to use it.
Charlie:Yeah. So take note any indie hikers listening. There's lots to learn from Money Twitter, more than more than we realize. And just to switch focus slightly, Valentin. So you've been working on a bunch of different projects before reaching find email, and some of those you're working on simultaneously, like, at the same time.
Charlie:So once you realize find email has been, like, taking off, like, I think you hit two and a half k MRR within three months, and then you're over 20 now. How do you think about, like, a sole focus versus, like, having small bets, like, working on other kind of projects at the same time? Do you do you see is all of your time now in finding out and you've kind of stopped that stuff?
Valentin:Yeah. So basically, when you have nothing working, I believe, like, trying different stuff is good. That's actually I should have done it way earlier because I spent like two, almost three years working on SEO and it led me no absolutely nowhere. And as soon as I started like playing with different projects, like I got much more working projects almost immediately. And so if I could go back entirely, I would try to like explore different stuff earlier than that.
Valentin:So it's, I think it's good to like play with different stuff, But you also have to like not get distracted too much and actually putting some effort into the things you try and not just keep switching. But also, once you've hit something that has success, like you will go much further like doubling down on what works rather than keep trying new stuff. So right now I'm stopping myself from like creating new products, even though I still have ideas for new stuff every now and then, like every creators. But I know that the right thing to do is just keep pushing and find email and can go much, much further because it's easier to grow something that's working rather than creating from something from scratch and be doing from zero to one k, like, it's much harder than doing 10 to 11 k in a row.
Charlie:That's really interesting. So early on experimenting with different things and seeing what kind of works and gets traction. But when you find that thing doubling down on on that basically.
Valentin:Yeah. Yeah. And also, like, this will, like, give your experience of, like, what's what's traction looks like. Because sometimes you can have product that is somewhat working and you're like, oh, well, it's it's it's growing slow, but it's growing. Maybe I just need to work harder on it.
Valentin:And then you work on something else, and it just grows 10x faster without you doing much more work, even less work. And we're like, okay, that's this. It's not only a matter of work. There's only just the potential of the product in terms of growth, like some product that have more tractions than others. And so you make your life where are there if you try to focus on the product that doesn't have that.
Charlie:Yeah. For sure. On the subject of becoming ramen profitable, what was your approach to get to that point? And did you have a figure in mind where you're like, okay. Now I can just not have to worry about freelancing or going to savings anymore.
Charlie:Did you kind of think like that?
Valentin:So during my studio, I was doing like work study. So I was getting paid for the last three years of my study as a like part time employee basically. And so in France, once you've worked for two years, you can get some unemployment benefits for two years if you don't have any work. So I just had that money for two years after I stopped my study. And I also made a bunch of money with the other projects I did before during my studies.
Valentin:So I was like comfortable with the India arching idea for like at least two years and I wouldn't have like be in money trouble because I also don't spend a lot. So I didn't need to like free dance and stuff. But I was saying to myself like I give myself two years to make something work and if it doesn't work after two years like even if like money wise I could keep at it longer because I wouldn't be probed by then, but I would be like just like if I can't make it work in two years and maybe it's not for me or something's missing and I may come back to it later, but I'll take a break then. So yeah, there was a two year limit And, basically, after eight months, it's just weird. So
Charlie:That's great. Yeah. Setting yourself a deadline there. Great advice, I think. And just on the growth tactics you use, you've already talked about you used cold email as, like, a a major way that you got new customers.
Charlie:But I think you've also mentioned that you use Twitter as well as, like, one of your main channels. Can you just talk us a little bit about, like, how you've used Twitter and, like, how you've seen results there?
Valentin:Yeah. So basically, the way I grew initially is that I use Scraperber to like at the same time scrape, you know, so do cold emails, but it's cold emails targeted at people that are active on Twitter. So when I got customer from there, obviously they will, as I mentioned my Twitter profile in the outreach and stuff, they will follow me. And then I started like being active in that money Twitter community called email community. And having those people, those customers like interacting with me, I interacted with them with the cold email with the people in the community that was speaking about cold emails on Twitter.
Valentin:And so that just created like an niche word-of-mouth and an attraction there. I got visibility there. People that was that were following those people interested in cold email while seeing my profile and following me. And I was picking myself about cold emails. So they will they will visit hide email by by my profile and be interested in maybe become customers.
Valentin:And I don't necessarily have like so exact attribution, like how many people came from Twitter. But I know for a fact that many people like just heard about signed email from Twitter because I saw sign ups even though I didn't get outreach to those people.
Charlie:Got you. I think one thing you didn't mention you also do that is you write quite spicy tweets and memes and stuff like that. So I think your the more than I saw let me just let me just pull it up. Was it Uber has no cars? Airbnb has no houses?
Charlie:Your startup has no customers. Maybe you're onto something. It's got, like, 10,000 likes. I thought I thought that was hilarious when that came out. But, do you have any kind of prep like, I know these things are are not, like, scientific, but, like, do you have any kind of process for just kind of, like, trying to write something that you think will get engagement?
Charlie:Not really. And I
Valentin:honestly, I'm far thriving. Crack the code on social media. Like, I'm I'm not I'm not a social media rockstar by any means. But, yeah, I just I will always enjoy, like, a a good meme. Like, I've been Internet consumer for many, many years, and I I have a lot of knowledge in terms of, like, meme Yeah.
Valentin:Meme knowledge. Like
Charlie:I can actually tell this from your landing page for Findemail. Like, I've never seen a landing page which has memes throughout it, and I'm assuming that it works, though.
Valentin:Yeah. That's I just like, I don't like myself seriously. Yeah. So and I always I always like crack jokes. So that also reflects in my marketing in terms of my learning page, but also my social media.
Valentin:Because I find it boring to spend some time creating like on Twitter about the 10 books that feels illegal to know about or something. But creating a good meme that make me laugh about cold email or or whatever, or start up world, that I enjoy doing. And if I have an idea, if I sit there and try to have some ideas, I usually have some fairly quickly. So it was a good way for me to have like decent content out there. And and people liked it.
Valentin:So that even that got even more interesting for me to get some impressions. So if that works to get rich and I enjoy it, then
Charlie:Why not? Yeah. They they say of content, you should aim to either educate or entertain. I feel like on Twitter, like, everyone's trying to educate. Like, everyone's kind of doing similar threads, like, quote of the day, here's the top 10 books in this thing.
Charlie:Not enough people are able to entertain. And I think I think people really appreciate it when you're able to do that in, like, a really kind of niche topic, like, around the worlds that we're in as well.
Valentin:Yeah. That's all quite hard to pull off consistently, and you can easily like repeat the same jokes over and over. Yeah. And at the end, it's not funny anymore. But yeah, if you're able to because pulling jokes, like you have to have some knowledge about the industry else.
Valentin:Otherwise, you can't pull really a joke that people relate. And obviously, you need to like do some actual work to be able to know that kind of insights. And then have some kind of sense of humor as well, which not everyone has. For sure. For sure.
Charlie:And one other thing I've seen that you've done is you decided to raise funding from TinySeed for finding out recently. What was your kind of thought process in that? Like, at what point did you decide, oh, maybe it's worth trying it? And, you know, how has being in that kind of environment like TinySeed with, you know, a cohort of other similar level SaaSes kind of impacted you?
Valentin:Yeah. So the soft process there was basically Dynasty was where I rather for a long time. When I was working on SEO, was like, that's a found that is founding like Bootstrap founders and focus like relates to Bootstrap, the Bootstrapping community and specific channels there versus the VC road. That's interesting. So I was like kept in touch with their marketing and follow them basically.
Valentin:So when Findemail got some traction and became like eligible to be an interesting project for them, I like started to really think about it. And the reason I applied was that I still consider myself like a really junior entrepreneur. Like I've not seen under my belt really outside of the trapping SaaS. Like I've never managed people and never hired anybody. And there's lots of many things I have no clue about.
Valentin:And the goal was to like have that mentorship with more experienced people so that I don't obtuse mistakes like the one I've done in on SEO that could have been easily avoided. And like I started looking at the numbers of like how much it was worth. And like to the few percent I gave up to tiny seeds. If they only make me avoid losing like six months going nowhere with pros, that's just worth a lot more than the few percent I gave up. So that just became a no brainer to go there and make my growth faster and avoid all the various pitfalls that we go with like scaling a SaaS company.
Valentin:And I am so thankful for that because like whenever I have a question, a specific problem as a founder, I know there's people there either on the community because there's lots of founders there that usually have come back to the same problem. Or in the like mentorship, like if I have a question on a specific subject, I can easily grab someone there and have like, knowledge accessible. And that's that's really valuable.
Charlie:Yeah. That's really interesting, you're thinking there. So you're not just thinking about you're thinking ahead in terms of help your needs at the next stage, perhaps with scaling and hiring. But also thinking in terms of the time that they would save of you not going down the wrong route is worth it in terms of the percentage you give away. So, yeah, I think that's some really smart thinking there.
Charlie:And you met a couple of other Ramen Club members out there, didn't you? Matt and Suk at the
Valentin:Yes. Yeah.
Charlie:Yeah. Yeah. That was awesome. I saw the picture.
Valentin:We created the Ramen Club cohort, basically, because there were three of us in the same Dynasty cohort. And I think, like, I think that was the the only cohort with running club members so far, and we're three in in the same. So that was funny as well. Oh, man.
Charlie:Just wanna switch gears slightly back on to find email. Just a few more kind of tactical questions I had. In terms of things you would have done differently if you'd started Find Email again, it sounds like it's gone, like, very, very well since you started it, honestly. But is there anything anything you just would have done differently in your journey up to Find Email that would have made everything go a bit better or a bit faster?
Valentin:On the Findemail journey or up to Findemail?
Charlie:I think everything up to Findemail.
Valentin:The main thing, as I already mentioned, I think, was, like, I wish I would shut down, like SEO faster and started exploring new projects earlier than that. And I really just kept tying myself on that project and I had enough to make it work. Maybe if I had that last feature of that would change everything, but that never was the case and I did that like too many times. So yeah, that's if there's one regret that will be it. Otherwise, the rest of the journey really went very fast.
Valentin:Like in less than a year, I made different projects, grow different projects and grew Findy Val itself to a very decent MRO. So I couldn't have wished any better honestly. I'm not sure how I could have done anything differently at at this point.
Charlie:Well, that's in a good position to be in for sure. And what do you think are the kind of main mistakes you see other indie hackers who who perhaps haven't got to this stage yet making?
Valentin:Well, the the main one is like not doing enough sales and marketing. That's the most obvious one. But they they all do the same. It's either that or they build a product that's basically is useless or like is a fun side product. I won't argue if it's fun to build or not.
Valentin:But if you want to grow a business like you can't build anything, You have to actually solve a problem and solve a problem that costs money and not just is for fun. So that's the two main problems I see in in the ARCO community, either they start building useless stuff or fenced up that won't bring any decent money anytime soon, or they just don't market the product and so nobody sees it. Nobody sees it, nobody uses it, they don't make any money and also they lose money for motivation because when you don't have feedback from customers, like it's hard to just keep going.
Charlie:Yeah. Certainly. Certainly that think that rings true and that kind of matches a quote I've seen in another interview of yours where you say, all your problems come down to your offer or traffic, basically. So you've been dipping your toe in the water a bit recently with a bit of community building by by hosting an IndieBiz meetup in Lyon. Yeah.
Charlie:Just curious, like, what's your kind of experience with that being? Anything you kind of learned from it or found surprising?
Valentin:I'm still very early in that journey. I don't have any like much insights on this yet. But one thing I found surprising when I first hosted in GPS was that a bunch of people showed up. So that was already surprising by itself, to be honest. And also like the various like profiles that showed up that were necessarily like the typical in like the article profile that's expected.
Valentin:And also like just people that did not necessarily match the description at the time. Like they did not necessarily have their own product or whatever, but just were interested about learning more about like online businesses and how to grow stuff and just like generally curious about how that works. And that was interesting to see like the values backgrounds of these people that can lead them to like start online business.
Charlie:Interesting. Well, keep spreading the word Valentin. Keep spreading the words. Valentin, just to finish up, if you had to summarize your advice and just into a sentence just for like your listeners, you know, maybe if they just tuned in right at the end somehow, Like, what was the kind of one to your one sentence advice to people who are taking a similar journey?
Valentin:Send more emails. You heard that. You heard the man.
Charlie:Send more emails. Send more emails. They work. And Valentin can show you how to build a great list and send a better email. Look, Valentin, thank you so much for joining us.
Charlie:I really enjoyed this chat. I learned a lot. And hopefully everyone listening did. So, yeah, thank you very much, man.
Valentin:Thank you for having me, man. Awesome.
